Podcasts. There are six million of them out there. One in three Americans now listens to a podcast daily.
Given the popularity of podcasts, should brands consider launching a podcast of their own?
Maybe. Studies show that 43% of podcast listeners say they would listen to a podcast hosted by their favorite brand.
So, how can effective public relations programs leverage the popularity of podcasts? What are the pros and cons of a brand hosting its own podcast? And what goes into producing a successful podcast?
Join Michelle Garrett and her guest, Doug Downs, a sought-after podcast producer specializing in podcast development, analytics, and marketing, and the host of Stories and Strategies, a top-rated podcast for PR and communications pros, as they discuss what you need to know about launching a podcast.
Show summary:
In this episode of ‘PR Explored,’ host Michelle Garrett, a public relations consultant and writer, interviews Doug Downs, the host of ‘Stories and Strategies’ podcast.
They discuss the significance of podcasting in PR and marketing, highlighting how podcasts can build brand trust and engage audiences more deeply than traditional social media posts.
Doug shares insights into his journey with ‘Stories and Strategies,’ a leading PR-focused podcast, and the launch of his podcast production agency. They also address common pitfalls that cause many podcasts to fail early, the importance of niching down content, and the effort required to produce and maintain a successful podcast.
Additionally, Doug emphasizes the need for more diversity in podcasting, particularly the inclusion of more women and marginalized voices as guests and hosts.
As the conversation progresses, they explore effective strategies for pitching guests to podcasts and how to differentiate oneself in a crowded media landscape.
This episode is packed with valuable insights for brands considering starting their own podcasts and for individuals looking to become notable podcast guests.
00:00 Welcome to PR Explored
00:49 Introducing Doug Downs and His Podcast
03:22 The Importance of Podcasts in PR and Marketing
09:33 Challenges and Realities of Podcasting
16:13 Building and Engaging Your Podcast Audience
29:42 The Future of Podcasting and AI
31:38 The Gender Dynamics in Podcasting
32:15 Promoting Diversity in Podcasting
33:05 Challenges in PR and Podcasting
34:28 Effective Pitching Strategies
38:21 Building Relationships Through Podcasting
48:13 The Importance of Storytelling in Podcasts
54:29 Concluding Thoughts and Encouragement
Show notes:
Website https://storiesandstrategies.ca/
Podcast https://podcast.storiesandstrategies.ca/ (now co-hosted with Farzana Baduel) – #1 PR podcast in the World according to Rephonic and Goodpods
YouTube Channel https://www.youtube.com/@storiesandstrategiespodcast
YouTube video from our channel specific to how to pitch a podcast (this one hosted by our podcast producers Emily Page and David Olijade) https://youtu.be/IMdN6GROLDI
Instagram Channel https://www.instagram.com/storiesandstrategiespodcasts/
TikTok Channel https://www.tiktok.com/@storiesandstrategies
FULL TRANSCRIPT:
Why Podcasts Should Be Part of Your PR Strategy
Michelle: [00:00:00] Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of PR Explored. PR Explored is a video podcast where we delve into trends and topics related to public relations and communications. I’m your host, Michelle Garrett. I’m a public relations consultant and writer, and I’m very excited today to have with me my guest, Doug Downs.
Welcome, Doug.
Doug: Michelle I greet you the same way every time. I think I did that the first time we connected on like a Zoom call or something a couple years ago, and for some reason I went, Michelle, so now that’s just a habit.
Michelle: I appreciate it because you don’t often get a welcome like that.
Doug: Yeah. It’s celebratory. Yeah. There should be more of those. Thank you for having me, Michelle. It’s awesome to be here.
Michelle: I’m so excited to have you because I am a big fan of your podcast stories and strategy. She’s an guest on your show, and so it’s so fun to have you on my show. So I’m so glad that you’re here [00:01:00] and I know about your amazing work.
But I would love for you to tell our viewers and listeners all about the latest and greatest, what you’re up to.
Doug: Absolutely. So I’ll start with the podcast stories and strategies. You’ll just, right as the name goes. And it’s a public relations podcast using data from raf. And according to Good Pods, we have the top PR focused podcast in the world.
Just added a new cohost, Farzana Baduel Oxford educated. She’s based in the uk. Just a remarkable. Person, but ex exceptionally intelligent, bringing on some fantastic guests. We’ve already got good momentum. You’ve been on five times, Michelle, and every one of those was a terrific episode.
And now adding Farzana just sets, we’ve hit the gas. We’ve hit the accelerator on the podcast and excited to see where it goes. Then the other part of what we do [00:02:00] stories and strategies is also a podcast production agency. So we work with, just counted them up, 17 clients, most in the United States.
Some up in Canada, as well as Mexico, Australia, and we’ll be adding some in the UK very shortly. So my whole world is podcasting. 24 7. No. And you are so good at what you do. And I have been a guest on a number of podcasts and I will say that you are hands down the best, most prepared host and I really appreciate, you always are, you do a lot of work to prepare and I think that makes a huge difference.
Michelle: So
Doug: my best ad libs are well rehearsed.
Michelle: Oh let’s see. So as we get started, I just wanna let people know you are welcome to ask questions, post questions. We will do our best to get to those. We probably will, we might save some till the end, but if [00:03:00] we see some that are. Applicable to what we’re chatting about. We might just jump in and grab those questions as we go.
So feel free to post if you have a question for Doug about podcasts. We’re gonna talk all about why a podcast can help your PR and marketing strategy, what you need to know, and we will. Also touch on pitching guests to podcasts. ’cause I know a lot of people that listen and watch are n PR and communications and so a lot of their clients are wanting to be on podcasts.
And so we will talk a little bit about what makes a good pitch, how to stand out, because I’m sure that many people that host podcasts get. Inundated with pitches and not all of them are equal
Doug: they are equal and they suck for the most part.
Michelle: I’ve heard, I, you’re not the first person I’ve heard say that, so I think that’s why it’s important to talk about it. But let’s see here. Let’s get started with a question and I’m gonna post it so that we can. Let’s see. So why [00:04:00] should a brand consider starting a podcast as part of its PR and marketing program?
Doug: Yeah I’m a big believer that at some point in time a podcast is going to become an expectation for large brands and medium sized brands. Just like a website, just like today. It’s ridiculous that you’re in business, but you don’t have a website. I don’t know about the smaller, not necessarily someone who’s hung out a shingle.
For public relations. A consultant may, maybe not quite at the expectation level, but for the medium and larger brands, it’ll become an expectation, and it’s because increasingly. Trust is becoming the most important thing. And the one I trust the most is someone just like me. So when I’m going to choose a brand, I’m going to look for the brand that I believe is just like me.
And for you and me, Michelle, I think it’s a little bit different than, sorry, I don’t think you’re Gen Z, Michelle. If you are that’s awesome. [00:05:00] Okay. But the Gen Zs and the Alphas. Who are coming up and will start to assume more and more control. They wanna know who you are and what you stand for.
So building trust early on. Is going to become so important, and that’s where a podcast absolutely thrives. A good episode is 30 minutes. Don’t worry about trying to Joe Rogan yourself and go three hours. That’s it’s ridiculous. Joe Rogan is a unicorn. He doesn’t exist in the real world.
People, I don’t even know if people really listen to three hours. Not the majority anyway, but do a 30 minute podcast that’s so much deeper than a social media post or even a thread, and people aren’t just clicking like they’re spending 20, 25 minutes with you in that podcast. You start to become somewhat of a habit for them when they’re on the Peloton.
Every Wednesday at noon. They know that’s when they put on Michelle’s podcast and listen [00:06:00] to who Michelle’s got. And maybe this episode doesn’t stick with them. So they’ve got another podcast they listen to or they wanna go back a couple episodes ’cause they haven’t caught up with Michelle lately.
You start to become that habit, you start to become the preference. And that’s why podcasts thrive so strongly at that trust level. And that increasingly is going to drive decision making for more and more people. That’s why brands should at least be looking at podcasts.
Michelle: You also shared some statistics that a lot of people are actually.
Listening to podcasts and people, even more people say they would listen to a podcast hosted by a brand. That they By a brand.
Doug: Yeah. So it’s not just comedians and it’s not just true crime, and it’s not just Dak Shepherd. Or Mel Robbins, personalities that Yeah, they will listen to what a brand has to say.
Great example, I love the one [00:07:00] McDonald’s had a couple of years ago about it’s swan sauce and all they did talk about the swan sauce, but they never tried to sell McDonald’s as a brand. They just went to different communities throughout the country and talked to people about what was happening in the community, and then at the end had them try the Chuan sauce.
Which is spicy. And some people loved it and some people had, they didn’t like it or they had other things to say, and that was the whole podcast. And it was just this community. And that builds trust in the brand, which McDonald’s is so good at.
Michelle: Yeah, I think, they’re probably struggling, like a lot of a lot of brands are to keep people, keep their audience coming in.
And they’re probably looking for new ways to reach their audience and I think that’s, if you have not considered doing a podcast, it’s a good thing to consider.
Doug: And the irony is, you think, okay, McDonald’s does it ’cause it’s a low priced option. Cool. I get, and sure for the younger demographic, great.
But statistically podcasts [00:08:00] appeal. Two thirds of podcast listeners are college educated and they make six figures or more. They’re smarter and they make more money. They’re a marketer’s dream because if you think about the average listener, you hop on the Peloton, you take the dog for a walk or you’re dr.
You’re commuting to work, whatever it is you’re doing. Some people listen to music. They have their Spotify playlist, right? Or their Amazon, their Apple music playlist, whatever they listen on. But then there are some people who decide, I’m tired. Of the music. I wanna stimulate my brain and podcasts are the way to do that.
One of the ways to do it, and it’s on demand and I can pick who it is I trust and I can listen to Michelle ’cause I trust Michelle. So that tends to be the folks who have higher levels of education and that statistically leads to folks who are making more money. It’s a marketer’s dream come true for advertising.
Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. Let’s talk a little [00:09:00] bit about a lot of people start a podcast, but then they often don’t keep going with it. They quit.
Doug: Oh, man. So
Michelle: what are some of the reasons why that happens
Doug: statistically, 19 out of 20 new podcasts will quit. The first months, and from what I’ve seen, at least half of them quit like seven episodes in.
The best metaphor I can draw is it’s like a gym membership. Everybody’s all gung-ho to join the gym. I’m gonna be different, and I know people quit, but I’m, and I’m in. And you go the first time and you have a good workout and yeah, that was great. And then you go the next time. That’s a bit of a drive, but I’m good with it.
I’m okay. And had to wait to get on a couple of the machines, but I’m all right with it. And then you go the third time and the fourth time, I, it’s okay if I cut it a little short. I’m gonna skip the fifth time because. I’ve been good. I’ve been going and it just starts to peter out with podcasts.
There’s a whole list of [00:10:00] reasons why people quit. Number one is it’s way more work to do it effectively. Effectively, you can do a podcast real simple. You can record a conversation with someone or with yourself on your phone. Post it to your RSS feed, bam, you got a podcast, you can do that.
But to do it effectively, to plan an episode that has a story arc to it because
that’s what
Doug: people want to niche your audience and their interests and be constantly listening to their interests to promote. Podcast to create all that material, the social media posts, the blog post write a newsletter for your podcast to develop QR codes for your podcast.
So when you’re out and about people, I’ve got one on a t-shirt. It says, ask me about my podcast, and I’ve got Q QR code on the back. And I swear to God, when I go out to get a coffee or when I’m at the airport, I had someone ask me or people [00:11:00] holding their phone up. To my shirt because this guy’s audacious enough, because people listen to his podcast.
But to do all that and then to do the analytics on your podcast because just because it makes sense to you. Doesn’t mean the audience that you’re attracting or are completely going with that, are you going too long? Are you going too short to pay attention to the analytics and see what your audience really wants?
And to respond to that? By my estimation, it’s five to six hours work, and that includes the editing and the planning and the promoting. It’s five to six hours work for a 30 minute episode. Wow. It’s you know how much work you put into these things, right? To do it effectively. The other is, there’s a term called pod fade gym fade, but pod fade.
And the one of the key drivers is podcasts are so slow to grow. You think you’re going to get hundreds or thousands or tens of thousands of listeners [00:12:00] right away that you’re gonna build this audience right away because you are just as good as so and and maybe you are. May, maybe you are, maybe you’re the exception and you’ve got that ability.
But podcasts grow so slowly. It can take years to build an audience, and people just lose patience with that because we’re in this immediate result society where I wanna look at my views and my impressions and your downloads aren’t measuring up to that. Those are two of the key reasons.
A and another one would be people, ’cause I work with a lot of clients. People can overestimate their own skills and they’re not as funny as they think. They’re, their friends think they’re funny, but they’re not as funny. They’re not as interesting. I’ve had clients who think they’re Oprah Winfrey and they think they can do that.
Heart tugging. Kind of [00:13:00] interview with, and you know what, Oprah’s got a lot of skill. She learned that and refined that over a lot of years to get to that point. And she’s earned that from her audience. And it’s a journey. It’s a journey to get there. And then the last thing I’ll add in is they don’t niche.
They try to be one of those most common mistakes is you try to be everything to all people. Yeah. I was in Chicago recently had a conversation with a couple of guys starting a podcast about addictions. Awesome. And they had both had a personal history with addiction recovery and they, I said who’s it for?
And say anyone who’s experienced addiction or is in the midst of addiction recovery. Awesome. Great idea. How many of those podcasts are there? There’s lots. What makes yours different? Is yours about Chicago? Is yours about not to pick on the south side, but that’s where we were at the time. Is yours about the south side?
Is yours about millennials in [00:14:00] addiction or divorced and recovering from addiction? What is it that makes yours distinctly different from someone else’s? You need to start with a sharp pencil. To create an effective podcast. Riches are in the niches, and then as you grow, as I get clients who are 10,000 listeners per episode and start to get bigger and bigger.
That’s when you start to broaden because. There’s only so many in that niche that you’re gonna get, right? That’s when you can start to, bro, and that’s when you become Mel Robbins, right? And she talks about anything. That’s when you can become huberman, who now talks way beyond or Stephen Bartlett, diary of a ceo o He hardly ever does it episodes about CEOs or business leaders anymore.
He talks about anything and everything because he’s reached that level where he can broaden. Don’t start broad, start extremely narrow. And then broaden out as you get bigger. I.
Michelle: Yeah, that’s a good tip. [00:15:00] Yeah, I think I, from my perspective, I just feel like people might think it’s a good idea and then they, but they don’t really understand the work that’s involved and they don’t really understand the planning or the promotion or that it takes time.
And, it’s like a lot of other things. You just the, you have to be consistent and be in it for the long haul and overnight success is rare. So that’s why I feel like it’s not, it’s not for everybody, I guess
Doug: so, so yours, like you started yours, you had a social media, I won’t mention the channel, I’m not sure you’re still doing it, but you had a social media live stream that you were doing.
You’re obviously doing this one. So yours, you morphed that to include. Podcast. So you had a process to begin with, right? Do you think that’s something that helps if you have the beginnings of a process? Maybe you’re familiar with posting to YouTube, you have a content creation background?
Yeah. [00:16:00] Does that help lead people to podcasting?
Michelle: I never thought I would have a podcast. In fact, I was probably in the camp of, what would I talk about?
Doug: I remember you saying that actually. Yeah.
Michelle: Even though behind the scenes behind the keyboard, I’m writing constantly. I’m posting on social media, I’m writing articles.
I wrote a book last year, but I never thought this was my medium, however. To your point, I think the con my, I do have a background in content marketing. I have a degree in journalism, so my writing is my thing. But what I do with the episodes now is I take the transcript and I publish it on my website, and then I can repurpose it in a number of ways.
Of course, I can create posts out of it for social media, I can put it in my newsletter. It, it gives me a lot of. A lot of stuff to work with. ’cause even the conversations are so thought provoking for me because I interview people like you who are I respect, who are smart and good at what they do.
So it’s, it really helps me. That’s my favorite [00:17:00] part of this, is that I get to talk to people like you and really it helps me just. Hone ideas that I might have or, think about things in a different way or, I just think it helps me professionally and I hope that other people benefit, from the process that I’m going through as well.
But
Doug: that’s good. So that takes me back to your first question. Why should brands think about a podcast? Because it spawns. Into how many social media posts can you write? From one episode, right? A lot. Generate a blog. You could write a newsletter, you could write a few topics on the newsletter.
Do 10 episodes and you’ve got 10 chapters of an ebook. Hello Chat, GPT. Not recommending anything, but pump it through generative ai. Refine it, of course, make it you make it the UESU, but I like Gen AI for taking the first run at stuff. If I instruct it well in my style and then create some art and you’ve got an ebook, people download the [00:18:00] ebook.
They provide their email to download the ebook. Hey, you’re on my newsletter list. Yeah. That’s all part of the ecosystem for why Branch should think about a podcast.
Michelle: Yeah. And I think, if you’ve done a lot of other, you’ve tried a lot of other approaches, it’s another thing that you can add to the mix because obviously omni channel, yeah, you don’t wanna just do things to do things.
However, I think it’s good to, to put something new in there once someone to try something new and shake it up a little bit. ’cause again, you’ve made a point about you can only reach so many people doing, maybe one thing or work, focusing on one niche or whatever. So you’re maybe different parts of your audience are paying attention to different things that you’re doing.
So that’s why I think it’s really interesting. And I just think it’s fun to, learn and there’s a lot of things that, you can learn from putting all this together. But but yeah, it’s, I think. You have to approach it with the right mindset and the right spirit about it.
So
Doug: yeah, absolutely. And the commonality of finding people with similar values or like values to yours, or [00:19:00] maybe someone whose values are different and listening for, okay, where are the threads that connect us here, but maybe we’re not completely different.
Michelle: Yeah. I think it’s always good professionally to have those conversations because, I interview people sometimes that we don’t always agree on everything.
But I think it gives me, it’s food for thought because, you don’t wanna just get stuck in your little bubble and never entertain a new idea or a new concept. Especially if you’ve been doing what you’ve been doing for a long time. As we have I will speak for myself anyway, but yeah, I need to keep it fresh and keep, coming up with, I need to have different ways of thinking about what I’m doing.
So
Doug: it, it just feels like there’s so much, there’s so much noise out there now. I wake up. In my inbox, I have about 50 emails because I do subscribe to a lot of newsletters. I subscribe to the Michelle Garrett pr. Is it right? That’s one of them. And I read that faithfully. The others auto delete.
No. But I wake up to so many emails. I’ve got [00:20:00] responses to social media posts that I’ve made, right? That the Europeans have had their day and they’re nearing the end of their day by the time I wake up. And they’ve responded or they’ve initiated something on social media that I wanna read.
But then all the, with Gen ai, all the content. That’s out there and everyone’s joining this omnichannel universe, a podcast bonds into a million pieces while those million pieces reach. So reach me so frequently that just more and more, I think people are trying to find a break from the noise.
The noise that they’ve already opted into their lives. Because they don’t wanna exclude it. So that’s another benefit of a podcast is I can put in my earbuds. And I can make a choice. I can express I trust this podcast, I’ve had a good experience with this one, or I’m gonna try this new one.
Doug: And that’s a whole conversation. Why do people look for a new podcast and what attracts them? [00:21:00] But I can go for this new one because someone recommended it, or, that says something about how I feel right now. They give it a go and they, if they pass that 62nd test, then they let it go for a few more minutes.
And if they pass that test they listen for 30 minutes. And then maybe they come back. Maybe that becomes that. So I think it works in that space where the noise is getting so much louder in our lives that I’m just dying for some me time, some Dougie time where I can put earbuds in.
Tell the world to be quiet for a little bit and just listen to what I wanna listen to, laugh the way I wanna laugh or be aghast at the True Crime podcast that I wanna listen to, whatever that happens to be.
Michelle: Yeah, we know those are popular.
Doug: Big time. Yes. Mostly with women, which scares me.
Michelle: That’s the last thing that I’m interested in and given the state of everything, is I don’t need anything to feed my anxiety, but, I know that people love [00:22:00] ’em. So
Doug: it’s so weird, like if my wife and I are watching something on Netflix or Hulu and it’s like even something at the, oh, someone’s gonna get shot here.
She’ll leave the room. Doesn’t wanna see it. But true crime, real new. Oh yeah. Oh, what happened there? Yeah, she’s all into that. So it does, it scares me a little bit.
Michelle: Yeah. Yeah.
Here’s a question and this is the thing for me. This has been the thing for a long time. It’s like there’s a lot of podcasts out there. Yeah. So is there really, are we really telling people that there is room for more?
Doug: Yep. There is lots of room. So depends on what source you go to. There’s somewhere between, let’s say, 4.8 million and 6 million podcasts out there.
Spotify has suggested there are 6 million, I think the podcast index. And you have to go in and put your podcast in the podcast index, and I know you’ve done [00:23:00] that. They have, I think it’s 4.8 million. That’s a lot of podcasts, right? For the world’s pretty big, but that is a lot of podcasts.
Then you look at how many of those are active podcasts? They’ve published something new in the last 30 days, at least. The last 30 days at just crossed over. Hallelujah. We just broke the 400,000 barrier. That’s less than 10%. 90% of podcasts are dead and some are series. I’ll give the series like that’s fine.
If you wanna publish a series, that’s cool. Cool beans. That’s so I’m not calling those dead. Those are series that, but 90% of podcasts out there are, it’s a zombie wasteland. It’s full of dead podcasts. That are out there. Yeah. And so yes, people can find them and some of them have 40, 50 episodes.
You might like [00:24:00] them. I have clients who’ve decided to pause or stop. It just didn’t fit their business anymore, but their podcasts are still up and I can see it. They’re still getting people that find them and listen to them. So in that sense there’s quite a few, but if you’re looking for regular listenership, if you’re looking for weekly listeners, biweekly is a bit harder.
But if you’re looking for weekly listeners, 400,000 podcasts, that’s it. That’s, there’s plenty of space. It’s a big world out there. It’s a big country. There’s plenty of space for your unique idea. If your idea is just like everybody else’s, if it’s been done before and there is no unique niche, if you aren’t the blue candy in, in the bowl of red candies, then you’re gonna get lost in the bowl of red candies.
Some blue candy. And niche that thing. Find your audience because they just happen to be [00:25:00] looking for you. And then let them help create the organic growth. They tell two people, they tell two people, and then as you get bigger, you can start to broaden out and you can become the best red candy in the bowl.
Michelle: So you’re saying if I’m hearing you it’s helpful to have your audience going into it. Maybe you’ve built your audience, on social media or through your newsletter or whatever, so that when you launch your podcast, you have an audience ready to
Doug: That’s a great, that’s a great, yeah.
So yes. Yeah. That’s all building audience, right? That’s, hello. 2025. That’s, we’re trying to. We’re trying to own our spaces now. So yes, if you have a social media falling, which you have a strong one, so you have a bit of an advantage that way. If you’re starting from ground zero though that’s okay.
That’s okay. Just be patient and invest the time, the energy, and the resources into growing it. And don’t try to be everywhere. [00:26:00] All at once find where your audience is receptive to you. So yeah, if you have an existing audience, that’s a very powerful thing. I’ve worked with Hollywood celebrities and their attention to their following is on hyperactive.
They are so careful about what goes out to their following because they are, that’s their bread and butter. I. They are nurturing the heck out of that thing, and for good reason they’re nothing without it.
Michelle: Yeah, no, that makes sense, right? Because I think when you go to your faithful, then they are gonna spread the word to new people and do some of that work for you.
So I always feel like that’s the way you wanna tap in. And I know with the book, that was really helpful because I had never really planned to write a book, and so I had already been, pouring into my my, all my social media and all my writing articles and things. And so that really helped [00:27:00] because I already had people that, trusted me and looked to me for advice.
So when the book came out, I think that helped a lot. And so I would think the same thing would apply to just about anything you’re doing in podcasts with.
Doug: Yeah. And I subscribe to your podcast because I know you, we, I actually never met in person, but we’ve met 6, 7, 8 times this way. And we’ve had just very real conversations when, even when the cameras and the mics are off that’s absolutely the strongest way.
Someone just like me, right?
Michelle: Yeah. No, I know. That’s the thing. And it’s, but it’s hard to keep up when everybody, has a podcast, a book, a newsletter. It’s, it is a little hard to keep up. So that’s why I still, sometimes I’m like, wow.
Doug: So let me ask you, you’ve got the book. There are, there’s AI now where you can turn that book into a podcast with a male and female voice talking to one [00:28:00] another.
And I won’t say absent of effect, it’s. It’s not bad. It’s, I don’t find it charismatic, but it’s it’s not robot sounding voices. Where do you stand ethically on the idea of turning a book into a series of podcast episodes?
Michelle: I’m okay with audio books. I haven’t heard a lot about the, what you’re talking about there, and I probably wouldn’t do it personally, but I know a lot of people are doing a lot of things with ai, so I think you just have to.
Make those choices, obviously, it’s here. So I, I, I think we need to figure out, what makes sense for us as far as using it and leveraging it.
Doug: Yeah. And what society deems acceptable.
Michelle: That’s the thing about it, I think. I feel like it’s very, there’s a, there’s it’s a very, it’s a charged issue.
There’s the environmental side of it as well. So all these little figures that people are creating, it’s like some people are not on board with that. Oh, the, like
Doug: an action phase. What’s, that’s become a really common trend right now. The action figure yourself.
Michelle: Yeah. Not [00:29:00] everybody’s thinks that’s, that’s a great use of ai
that’s
Michelle: just an example. But no, I, I feel like people just need to explore with a lot of other things and just figure out what works for them. But but yeah, I would do an audio book probably before I would Do,
Doug: one, one thing I’d love to talk about is, the gender differences with podcasts, there’s a history in that more men, 15, 20 some odd years ago, more men started podcasts.
So
Doug: more men listened and I imagine men started this because they felt they had something to say. And pro sweeping generalization. Maybe more women were busy doing other things and the men had some time to try a podcast.
But anyway, in 2025, podcasts do still skew slightly male. In terms of listeners. But the average female listener listens to more podcast episodes.
Michelle: Okay, that makes sense.
Doug: So to me, from an hours standpoint, I’ve never seen a stat on this, but to me from an hours standpoint, it’s pretty mixed.[00:30:00]
I think we need more women hosting their own podcast. And beyond just women. More bipoc more L-G-B-T-Q, more voices. Not that those, not that’s a niche, but those are communities that can be built and those voices need to be included in podcasting. I’m actually a huge proponent of that.
In particular for us leaning toward women becoming more active in podcasting, which will lead to more women taking on leadership roles.
Michelle: Yeah. I know in public relations we see a lot of, it’s a women heavy field. However, at the top, the leadership is not reflective of that. That’s I think again I’m super, of course very pro woman and I’m with you.
Yeah. Diversity, the need for diverse voices and
Doug: and how does that happen? And we, so our podcast is a PR podcast, and I’ve seen the same stats. The stats I’ve seen are that the PR. Representation, at least in the Western world is two thirds women. And the one third [00:31:00] men are the majority that are at the C-suite.
Position. I can tell you three quarters of the pitches that we get to be on our podcast are from dudes, which is cool. Some of them are great ideas. But that’s pretty why men? Why are men? Putting their voices forward. I admire the confidence and all that, but I think we can do more to promote the confidence in women stepping up to put their name forward, to be on a PR podcast, first of all, but also to, to take on leadership roles.
And I just think that needs more voices and it probably needs some male voices. That are advocating for this too, because that, I think that will help facilitate the way, and that’s what we’re doing with our podcast.
Is
Doug: we’re trying to focus on 75% women. And it’s gonna be hard because so many of the pitches we get are from men.
Like we’re really having to focus on this.
Michelle: Yeah, no, I, that makes sense to me. I [00:32:00] think one another reason is that, historically men are just better at talking about themselves. And I think one thing that I’ve tried to do as a woman and also, I, on my own, I don’t work for a company, I work for myself.
I have a personal brand. I try to speak up. And talk about what I’m doing and why it matters and, I just, I think that’s, I’m trying to set an example or just show that it’s okay to talk about what you’re doing. Of course, you don’t wanna talk about it in a really icky way, but sharing you thoughts or your approach or your successes or whatever.
I think there, we need to do that. As women, we need to be doing that more. Yeah. Tooting our own horn a little bit more.
Doug: I here we go. Down the path. I think men push out more. I think men broadcast more. We can adopt like a salesy, I’m gonna capture that method of communication. Whereas I think sweeping generalization, please. I, my experience is that more women are looking for the commonalities [00:33:00] together. The communication is just different. I think women actually communicate better. Than men because they communicate more. And they’re looking for, are you with me? Am I expressing myself in a way that, that you understand, that you agree with?
And I think it leads to things like the verbal uplift. I find more women tend to end sentences on the uplift. And that is in part because you’re looking subconsciously for, are we together? On this. Yeah. Whereas more men just tend to push out sweeping generalization not to denigrate men either, because I think they’re obviously, guys like Joe Rogan are phenomenal communicators, extremely effective at what they do.
Michelle: Yeah. I’m just, I’m gonna put this up because this wasn’t on our list, but we’re just talking now about, do we need more women, as podcast guests and hosts. And I think so to that,
Doug: the, as I say, the majority of the pitches for our podcast are for men. Now we’ve got [00:34:00] 17 clients and we also get pitches for those podcasts too.
I can’t say I have looked at it with that lens, but it’s. Top of mind, it strikes me that the majority are also from men. Or we’ll often get the PR person, which two thirds of the time seems to be female. I can’t really, I don’t know from female. But it seems to be women pitching for the male boss for the male ceo.
I’ve never really done. On that, but across those 17 clients that we’ve got, we get pitches all the time. So it’s, it seems to be mainly men pitching themselves to be guests, which is a, okay. It’s a sales it’s a form of marketing, a form of sales. And a powerful one. It’s if you’re, if you are looking to pitch male or female, yourself to be on a podcast. That is a very powerful way to improve your brand. Yeah. And build [00:35:00] your personal brand. But then document it. Create a page on your website that has the artwork and a link to you being interviewed here, and then the artwork, and a link to you being interviewed here, and so on.
And make each one of those. Tell people in a sentence or two why this was an interesting episode. And it was so fascinating to be on. And the podcast host will love you. For that. Yeah. That’s what they want.
Michelle: Yeah. I would just say from a PR perspective, and this is just something I’ve observed as a, having people on now as a host, but also being a guest is, a lot of guests don’t even share the episode.
They don’t talk about it beforehand. They don’t share it after. And I feel it’s just a missed opportunity. It’s just an oversight and it’s. It’s something that the host would appreciate, but honestly, it would behoove the guest. It would benefit the guest too.
Doug: Yeah, POP it, proof of performance, man.
Promote it a couple of times if you can in advance and a couple of times on the backside of it, [00:36:00] that’s, you’re right. The host wants it, but improves your personal brand. People think of you associated with that topic. Yeah. That’s why you’re doing it.
Michelle: Yeah. I’m like, why bother if you’re not even gonna like what is the, what’s the point?
I don’t know. I know there are a lot of reasons, and I would even say, you were talking about AI earlier, and again, with ai, driven search, we need to be showing up as many places as we can be, and it feeds the, the large language models and all of that. So there is that as well.
I know someone who said be on a podcast. If there are two listeners, just, it’s still, it’s going in there, it’s getting fed in there, so it’s still worth your time. It’s like a good use of your time. So from a PR perspective, I feel you don’t wanna turn down opportunities, but you also wanna make the most out of every opportunity that you get.
And I don’t see people doing that
Doug: sometimes. That’s also the relationship you build with that host, right? You just don’t know if two or three years down the road. Maybe you’re both doing something differently, but you’ll remember that you shared that half hour, that hour [00:37:00] together and you built a rapport with one another.
And I know Michelle is just like me. So to speak. That, so you build that kind of relationship with someone.
Yeah.
Doug: Yeah. To guessing, I guess we can go a bit down that path. So we wanna talk about good pitches and bad pitches, right?
Michelle: Yep. I did have that as a question. What do you think makes a good guest pitch?
Because I know you said earlier you get a lot of. Poor pitches.
Doug: Oh my God. We get horrible. We’ve actually got a whole video on our YouTube channel Stories and strategies, not that I’m promoting it. We’ve got a whole video where a couple of our producers talk about the sucky pitches. Oh no. And they, I’ll put the link up for that.
They always, God bless you. Stories and strategies on YouTube. They begin with the opening, I won’t swear, the opening BS. And it’s, I heard your last episode that talked about chunky peanut butter, and I got me thinking [00:38:00] about my CEO, who works in. Carpet upholstery. I was like, what the whatcha doing? All they’ve done is they’ve gone to your show notes, they found your podcast, they found the, they used Nik, first of all, to find your podcast.
I’ll just give you the tool. Then they’ve gone to your latest episode. They’ve looked at the first sentence, and they’ve scalped the first, that’s a bad word. They’ve lifted the first sentence, and they’ve put that in the opening pitch, which half the time is in the wrong font. To the rest of the email.
I swear to God it’s in the wrong font. And then they just start pitching their CEO, which is pure template. It’s pure template. We must, in the course of a week, we must get 60, 70 pitches across the podcast. We’ve got, I swear to God, 50, 55 of them are just like that. They’re that bad. They have not taken a nanosecond to listen to the podcast.
They have no [00:39:00] idea what it’s about. They can’t tell me anything about it, and they have not pitched a unique story idea. They’ve simply said that their carpet upholstery, CEO. Why that would be on a PR podcast. No idea. They’ve simply pitched their CEO to be on the podcast ’cause they’re spraying and praying.
Yeah, that’s it.
Yeah.
Doug: I had I had a meeting earlier this morning with Lauren Passel. She’s a dynamo in the podcast industry, runs Tink Media, and I’ve wanted to meet Lauren for a couple years and I just, I see her at conferences. I never had the guts to, I’m just not good at stepping in front of someone and say, hi, I’m Doug.
It’s not my way. But I had chance to do a Zoom call with her, my business partner, Emily and I, and so I spent time last night going through Lauren’s website, reading her newsletters, and I found a conversational way. She had a an entire newsletter piece talking about how she listens to podcasts in 1.8 [00:40:00] times speed, which Oh,
Michelle: yeah.
Doug: Oh my God. Blew me away, right? Because I, and so I had a mental note work it in conversationally. About 10 minutes into the call I mentioned to her like, if I’m speaking too slowly, you want me to speak at 1.8 times speed, I’ll do that. And so that tells Lauren, at the very least, this guy she doesn’t know has spent some time with her content.
So if you’re making a pitch. To make an effective pitch, what do you have to do to convince the host that you have spent some time with their content? I can tell you straight up using Nik and looking at the first sentence of the show notes and mentioning it off the top, not even remotely close.
Listen to the episode. Be more qualitative than quantitative. The small podcasts, the ones that are desperately looking for guests. You might get on them and you’re right. Go on them if they have two [00:41:00] listeners. I agree with that. Do it. Yeah. But let’s be honest. You want the podcast that has 5,000, 10,000, a hundred thousand listeners?
Yeah. That’s what you want. Those podcasts, if you’re spraying and praying you got no prayer. So while you’re spraying, I have no idea. Yeah. You have no chance of getting in. And in fact, I see the same podcast pictures from the same PR companies, and it’s gotten to the point because I wake up to 50 or 60 emails.
Michelle: I don’t even open the pitch. I confess. I’m swiping and deleting because it’s from so and I already know their pitch is garbage. You’re building your reputation. Wow.
That is, now see that is a nugget. I’m gonna write, I’m gonna have to write a post a little, at least for LinkedIn.
Write a post about what you just said. And I know that’s true and I do think pitching podcast is a little bit of a challenge, a, because there are so many, and the client will just say get me on some podcasts. And I’m like, okay, what do you, what podcasts are [00:42:00] you? Thinking about it.
Audience. Yeah. And they sometimes they don’t really know, they just think they wanna be on podcasts, which, okay, so then you had to do research. For a long time, media databases didn’t really do a very good job of including podcasts. And even now I don’t really know that’s true. And then once you do even hone in on a podcast, and most of the time they wanna be on the big ones, which again, it’s like being in the Wall Street Journal right out of the gate.
Like you can maybe ladder up to that, but you maybe won’t start there. It’s hard to find the right person to even pitch. ’cause it is like the production company that ends up being the listed as the contact, and that’s not really who’s making the decisions about who the guests are. I just, it’s, yeah.
Doug: Yeah. Relationships, right? Build relationships. And if you’re sending out crappy pitches, you’re not building them. You’re, yeah. You’re tearing them down. You’re building walls for that producer, they’re not gonna like you at all.
Michelle: Yeah. I think it takes time and, yeah. Just to, pull a [00:43:00] list and cut and paste and spray and pray and that’s how a lot of people approach pr and that is not really, they do get you anywhere.
It’s really not.
Doug: They do. Yeah, you’re right. I find Nic, for me is the best tool, but listen notes. Is another one,
Michelle: say I don’t know if I’m familiar with that. Uhhuh?
Doug: Yeah. R-E-P-H-R-E-P-O-N-I-C. And there’s a free version, which is eh but for a hundred bucks a month you can build a list and export it, and it is good.
Michelle: Okay.
Doug: Yeah we use Rafik. We don’t do a lot of pitching that way. We’re a producer. But we use that, the data in Rafik, especially their audience estimations. Because there is no, for podcasts, unless you’ve put your podcast on OP three
o
Doug: open source three, which we have. Our numbers are very public, we.
We play with an open hand. Most podcasts don’t. They play with a closed hand and they don’t divulge their numbers and That’s cool. Whatever you choose. Raf does a [00:44:00] pretty darn good job at estimating audiences. Okay. They’re generally in the ballpark, so you can get an idea.
It was significantly different from listen notes. Listen notes. There’s a paid version of listen notes and it seems, listen notes seems to have, it seems more broadly known and people will say, oh, I’m in the top 5%. But listen, notes really has no clue. About the size of your podcast not to completely disregard it, but raf seems to sharpen things quite a bit. And then if you finally do get a guest spot, it’s, working with yourself or working with your CEO
Michelle: don’t
Doug: make this a salesy thing. Make this tell stories. Yeah. Un under understand the narrative that the host wants. And you and I have done this five times on my podcast is to, I’ll tell you, I wanna focus, the first one we did, I think was snake oil and pr.
Yes. Yeah. Remember that five years ago?
Michelle: Yes. I remember that. I think about that [00:45:00] sometimes.
Doug: And we did this whole episode about is it too greasy? Too snake oily. And you fit it. Perfectly.
Michelle: And
Doug: so I wanted to have you back and in the right amount of time. And then again, the second episode, which I don’t remember off the top of my head.
Second episode. Third. Fourth and fifth. And it’s because you deliver to the narrative that I wanted for my audience. Hopefully I know my audience. The best. Whatever quirky nature that I think my audience has, which is probably in line with my quirky personality. And then to deliver on that narrative, deliver on the narrative for the host, deliver the piece they want, and if you’ve got calls to action, try to fit them in toward the end.
Because the end of the episode, there’ll be fewer listeners, first of all, but no one’s got their phone in their hand.
Michelle: During
Doug: the right. They just, so if you give CTAs in the middle you’re hoping they remember it for later, but if you give some [00:46:00] CTAs at the end of the episode, call to action.
Their phone is in their hand. They just might. They’re, they finished listening. They might give you a couple minutes on your website, stuff like that.
Michelle: I just think it’s about visibility too, and you never know which particular touch is gonna get to somebody. Oh, yeah.
Or when you’re gonna show up at the time they need you, or they know somebody who needs you. That’s how I view a lot of this for people like me. Or my clients because it’s like I don’t always wake up and need to buy something from this manufacturer, but you know what, in six months, maybe that does happen.
Or maybe I don’t need PR today, but I. In three months I might. I think it’s just important to look at it as an overall, effort to market yourself or your business in the best way you can in as many meaningful ways that reach your audience as you can. But yeah, obviously you can’t do all the things.
And do them all the time. And it’s hard.
Doug: And if you can tell a story that’s sticky, right? Tell a story that makes they remember the [00:47:00] topic. ’cause it’s what’s in it for them, but then maybe they remember you because you told this story that worked and that stuck with them.
Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. I was just thinking about how many I even get, I get pitched by people who want to pitch me as a podcast guest, and I would say, again, they haven’t really done their homework.
As to they act like you’ve never been on a podcast or you don’t, you wouldn’t know how to go about yourself or I just think a lot of people are selling stuff to the snake oil point that it’s not real. And they’re, if you are gonna hire somebody to pitch you as a guest, I would say make sure that you know that they know what they’re doing.
Ask for examples. Look and see, maybe they can give you some clients and you can go out and actually just do a search and see how many podcasts they’ve been on, which podcasts they are, that kind of thing. ’cause I know people I ha I know some people are very good at it, and then other people I don’t think are,
Doug: that’s actually really it. I get similar emails. That’s a [00:48:00] growing trend. There’s a lot of agencies. And that’s only gonna get bigger. There was a big one that just got bought out. Kit Caster just got bought out by a bigger company, so the bigger fish are eating. The medium sized fish now in that industry.
And there’s gonna be more and more of that. They’re like your agent, right? Yeah. Pitching you to be on a show. They become your BB from Frazier. Trying to get Frazier. Trying to get Frazier the best deal. I loved bb, I thought she was great. They become your BB and they pitch you and they gu they tend to guarantee you a certain number of podcasts that you’re going to be on.
Michelle: Yeah.
Doug: And that’s part of the deal. Yeah. And of course the whole thing is that doesn’t guarantee you listenership. No. And even if you get downloads, a download is 60 seconds. That’s not, that’s a 30 minute podcast. So maybe we shouldn’t be measuring this stuff entirely by download anymore.
Yeah. Maybe we should be looking at hours listened.
Michelle: Yeah, [00:49:00] no, I know people who are really good at it. And then I know people like, and who are, I wouldn’t trust, and you can do a little bit of homework even, just googling the person who contacted you or the agency that contacted you to find out rep the, what their reputation is because anybody can say anything online or in an email or, so we just really have to be skeptical and be approaching it from that.
Perspective, I think, ’cause again, the last thing I want is for someone to have a bad experience and then be like, oh no, now you know, they think that, PR folks don’t know how to pitch and they don’t know how to get me results and they, so I just, yeah,
Doug: there’s lots of that.
There’s lots. And most of the pitches that I get, pure crap. I don’t know where they get this template from. ’cause they all look the same. Yeah, they all have this empty salutation opening paragraph, and I swear to God, stories and strategies, our podcast name was in a different font, like 10% of the time they not copied it in.
It’s whatcha doing? [00:50:00]
Michelle: Oh, is there anything else that you want to share as we wrap up here?
Doug: I guess just encouragement to do it. I talked a bit about, we talked about how hard it is, how much work it is. It’s because most of my sales calls when I have a potential new client I go through this because I’m trying to talk them out of it.
And if they’re really in it and they see not just the personal benefit, but they see the business benefit, they understand that there are KPIs and measurement attached to this, and they have to follow it. Then I’m willing to work with them, but encouragement to just do it to host your own space.
You can do it, be patient and don’t demand too much of yourself or downloads right away. And do everything in a story format. So if you get to interview Little Red Riding Hood. On your podcast, don’t make the first question. Oh my God. What was it like when the big bad Wolf [00:51:00] scared you? The first question should be, tell me what you were doing that day, when you were going to your grandma’s place, and what happened.
Second question could be, what happened to Grandma’s place? Oh my gosh. And third question should be, what can we take from this? What can we learn from this about safety? Maybe urban encroachment on a protected wolf, especially a talking wolf’s habitat something along those lines. And that’s just story, man.
That, and that’s crafting a good interview is once upon a time, suddenly there’s something that disrupts the piece. And then what happened afterward? Pure storytelling format, structure your interviews that way, and over time you will build audience. I.
Michelle: Yeah, no, I think that you do that so well, and I think everybody listening or tuning in should be tuning into your podcast stories and strategies as well.
And it’s up there on the screen if you have not checked it out, be sure and do [00:52:00] that. And yeah I’m a big fan of Doug’s and I’m
Doug: likewise.
Michelle: Thrilled that you were here today and I, I look forward to what you do next. So
Doug: I can’t wait to have you on for episode six together.
Michelle: I am looking forward to it.
Doug: Yeah, you’re like our Jimmy Smits.
Michelle: I told you SNL has a five timers club, so I’m expecting like a t-shirt or like a,
Doug: you know what, yes, we should be sending you a mug like with your photo and a QR code. Why have we not done that?
Michelle: On SNL, they get like a robe and they get like champagne. They get,
Doug: alright, okay, we’re getting personal.
Yeah, we could do that. And some strawberries, a little bit of chocolate.
Michelle: Yeah,
Doug: no, we’ll have a small weekend together, Michelle.
Michelle: This was informative and fun and I knew it would be, and I [00:53:00] really appreciate you spending time with me. And yeah, I think anybody interested in podcasts should follow you for your your wisdom, and then also listen to stories and strategies. Your podcast. So all the links are up there. If anybody has any questions, I also put Doug’s LinkedIn on there.
Be sure and follow him there too. And I’m sure he’d always be happy to answer any questions you have or if he can be of help, I’m sure he would be happy to do that.
Doug: Don’t just follow on LinkedIn Connect, hit the connect button. I’ll connect. Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle: Alright, thanks everybody for being here.
I’ll be back next week talking about how to jazz up boring industries when you’re doing PR and comms. Looking forward to that and I will see everybody then. Thank you so much.
