Measurement. The mere mention of it can cause a public relations pro to shudder.
Whether PR pros work in-house or on the agency or consulting side, the question, “How can we measure results?” always comes up – but the answers aren’t always clear.
On September 4, Johna Burke, CEO and global managing director of AMEC (the International Association for Measurement and Evaluation of Communication), joined PR Consultant Michelle Garrett to discuss why measurement in PR isn’t optional – it’s a must.
How can PR pros better measure results and provide insight to their clients and the C-Suite? We discuss how to approach this in a way that will help our clients see the value of our work.
Show summary:
In this episode of PR Explored, host Michelle Garrett, a public relations consultant, talks with guest Jonna Burke about the importance of measurement in PR.
They discuss the evolving landscape of AI and automation, the necessity of having strong data acumen, the importance of setting measurable objectives, the challenges around vanity metrics, and the significance of frameworks like the Integrated Evaluation Framework (IEF) and Barcelona Principles for effective PR measurement.
Jonna highlights tools and resources available for PR professionals, including AMEC’s measurement maturity mapper and the importance of ethical and inclusive data practices. They also explore the challenges and opportunities in communicating the value of PR efforts to organizations and the importance of PR professionals being confident in asking critical questions to improve strategy and outcomes.
The episode wraps up with insights on nuances of copyright in PR, the varying levels of sophistication in PR globally, and the emphasis on continuous learning, curiosity, and being an advocate for strategic and data-driven PR within organizations.
00:00 Welcome and Introduction
00:19 Discussing the Importance of PR Measurement
01:35 Latest Trends in AI and Automation
04:27 Understanding the Integrated Evaluation Framework
06:01 The Role of Data in PR and Communications
08:27 The Importance of Asking Questions
14:47 Navigating AI in PR
18:02 Challenges and Ethics in AI
27:11 Measurement Education in PR
29:23 Global Student Participation in Amex Summit
30:35 Importance of Data Acumen in PR and Communications
31:30 Setting Objectives and Measurement in PR
32:44 Encouraging Questions and Trust in Teams
34:45 Role of Comms in Reputation Management
36:46 Challenges with Vanity Metrics
43:55 Integrated Evaluation Framework (IEF)
49:15 Global Perspectives on PR Practices
49:57 Copyright and Legal Considerations in PR
56:04 Upcoming Events and Continuous Learning
58:33 Final Thoughts and Farewell
Show notes:
Follow Johna Burke on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gojohnab/
amecorg.com
FULL TRANSCRIPT:
PR Measurement: Not Optional
Michelle: [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of PR Explored. I’m so happy to be back today and I have a guest and really a friend, Jonna Burke with me today. Welcome Jonna.
Johna: Hi Michelle. Great to be here. Hello everyone.
Michelle: So good to see you and I know, you are a busy person and I’m just happy to have you with us today to talk all about measurement in pr, which is not optional.
Johna: Not an option. It is one, it’s wonderful to be here with you. It’s always a treat, and I think this is our first time getting to really talk since you published your book. So congratulations on that. That is a huge accomplishment, as I know from anybody who’s gone through the process. So congratulations and, for those readers out there, I think if you’re in the.
B2B PR and wanting to know how to get value of your [00:01:00] pr, it’s, a book to pick up and great on flights and everything else. So thank you for all of your contributions to the community. it really does take a village and it means a lot. So thank you and thank you for having me.
Michelle: that is so kind.
Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. it is a lot of work to get a book out that’s, there’s no doubt about that. yes, I appreciate that very much so Thank you. And I would love to hear, before we really dig in here, what you’ve been up to. What’s the latest and greatest.
Johna: The latest and greatest is all of it. there obviously is this, proliferation of AI and automation in everything, which really spurred a lot of the conversations and a lot of the events from the first half of the year. And, we dig into the good, the bad, and the ugly from all of that throughout [00:02:00] and.
I think at the root of everything though is. really good conscientious people wanting to do the best for their organization and for their clients, and trying to understand that path and the path that’s almost shifting beneath their feet in some respects and in some industries. And it’s, become the puzzle that fights back.
But I think we have a lot of really smart people who are there and tackling that at every step and. it’s exciting. It’s a challenge, right? There’s never a boring day in, in the world of PR, comms and measurement. So in that respect, we’re very lucky, right?
Michelle: It is, it’s never a dull moment, that’s for sure.
And I feel like we, I feel like when I got into pr, we didn’t really, it, we didn’t talk about measurement very much, so I feel it’s, first of all, I, it came [00:03:00] on the scene and then, it’s only grown in importance, but also I think it’s still. There’s a complexity to it.
And so I just feel like it’s, never going to be something that, you just, it is one of those things that’s gonna be ever evolving and changing. yeah.
Johna: Yeah, that’s what makes.
Michelle: It’s definitely interesting, but it’s just hard to get your arms around and I think, as we get started, I, kind of wanna set the scene, because we have, there are, there’s definitely, I. I guess there’s, again, I hear more talk about it. I feel like that means more people are starting to come on board and grasp what they need to do and how it all works.
But I still feel like there’s a lot of confusion. people wanna use vanity me metrics, for example, and they, just don’t really understand, [00:04:00] how to tie it to results. like the C-Suite wants to know how does it impact our bottom line? And I don’t know that. We in PR and comms are always doing a great job of tying, putting that together and really connecting the dots for them.
So I’d love to talk about that a little bit.
Johna: Everything is on the table. I’m an open book, you know that.
Michelle: let’s pull up, one thing we can talk about for sure is the, integrated framework. Integrated evaluation framework. I’m gonna put the link here in the comments so that people can see what we’re talking about. this is on a m EEC site and it is free and it is a wonderful place to start if you’re not really sure where to start with measurement.
and maybe we can talk a little bit about that.
Johna: I’ll [00:05:00] back up two steps before we talk about the IAF because I think it’s, a good foundation for everyone to understand. So I think there’s the Barcelona principles, which is probably what most people know, AMEC for. And, we are in the process of.
Working on the Barcelona Principles 4.0, if you can believe it. It’s been, yeah, if you can believe it. It’s been that long since the first iteration of the Barcelona principles in 2010, and we’ve been updating those every five years. So look for some AI elements and some of those components, but that’s a really good foundational piece of starting those conversations with your teams of, okay.
This isn’t the exhaustive explanation, but these are those guardrails that we can look at to better understand how we’re going to be able to operationalize measurement and evaluation in an ethical and in a [00:06:00] meaningful way to our organization. And then what I suggest is everyone takes a look at the M three, which is the measurement maturity mapper, and that’s essentially a six to eight minute diagnostic.
And it’s created so that everyone can go through, fill in where they are right now with their team, within their organization, and then it will show them their maturity level at the completion of that. So there’s, the basic, intermediate and advanced, and if you’re at the basic level, it provides some steps of how to move up to the intermediate level.
If you’re found at the intermediate level, there are some steps to provide to move you up to the advanced level. And that in the spirit of research gives you a good baseline of where you’re starting. So then when you employ the IAF, you know where you are on some of those campaigns and initiatives, and you can then use that as a gauge of the success of your campaign, of your [00:07:00] program, but also of the maturity of your team.
So it really works as a twofold of understanding what are those data sets that you’re able to pull from, how do you diagnose that? How do you understand that? And then, that framework though can serve as a very user-friendly model of the why you’re doing what you’re doing. And that’s really where we see the most advancement in the personal professional, because now they aren’t trying to be a robot.
They aren’t like must write press release, but they are really weaving that together of, okay, I understand the why. So now I can tie in. Those other facets of emotion and connection and those links that will resonate with their audiences. That’s, that really important piece of the relation in relations of public relations and also in reputation.[00:08:00]
If you aren’t making that connection with your audience, how can you expect them to be that advocate and that to, maintain their trust in you if they don’t understand. Understand and, that connection of those stories is really that important piece that’s where the comms and PR professionals should be able to focus and they can do so in a more meaningful way when they understand the why they’re doing what they’re doing.
Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. I don’t think we ask enough questions. I think sometimes it just comes up and the finger gets pointed, at your comms department, PR team, whatever, and they just are like. deer in the headlights and they, start to stammer around and try to come up with a, some reasoning or some inside or some, and they’re not really basing it, they’re not stopping taking a breath and saying, okay, why are we doing this?
What are we wanting to measure? And just backing up and starting. [00:09:00] again, just not going right into, how did this campaign do? Or like, why, what can you tell me about, like how our, what we’re doing is working? they just, I think it’s, I don’t know why we get so intimidated sometimes.
’cause I see this in other areas as well, and it’s just like you you mentioned like talking about press releases. It’s go, go write a press release. Okay. First of all, why are we writing a press release? it’s like we need to be, asking more questions. And I know like when you’re newer, you’re younger or not as experienced, you might be a little bit intimidated if it’s your boss or the C-suite or whoever.
But I do think that is part of our role, in a comms role to be asking questions about what are we, wanting to measure? Why are we doing this thing that we, you want us to do?
Johna: And I think that’s another facet of complexity that we’re dealing with is exactly what you just said is more prominent in.[00:10:00]
Our generation than in other generations. they are open to asking questions because they are in sponge mode, which is a beautiful, wonderful thing. And it doesn’t occur to them that, oh, those questions could be that. I should know this or that. I don’t know this. because they’re also digital natives and data and working in a digital environment requires additional inputs.
And so that’s why it’s so important to have that mindset so that you can be more effective, right? Because If you don’t know what questions to ask or how to ask questions, you can’t get insights in what you’re trying to understand and, that does leave you with this divide between yourself and your audience of what you’re trying to accomplish.
and it really is critical to be able to get into that head space and to be [00:11:00] able to be confident. and that’s what data does for communicators is it makes them. More effective because they can be data led, they can have that confidence, and then they can be more effective at leveraging their interview skills to be able to.
Then uncover the real need of their audience and of those people. So it’s, only good can come from it.
Michelle: Yeah, I will see questions as a good thing, but I know not every, boss or client I’ve had might not you it that way, but you’re not asking questions. you’re just an order taker, and that’s really, we need to get out of that role because I, do think we need to be, adding the strategic piece there.
that’s, we, know how to do that and we should be, calling on that, those skills as well.
Johna: absolutely. Absolutely. It’s, Data [00:12:00] is the key though, being, having an acumen for data and having respect for data and having the confidence in it is, the pathway to that. And I, for some reason can’t connect to the chat, so I’ll just say heya.
Michelle: Yes. And if, and I was gonna say, I’ll type it in the, the box, but if anyone has questions, for, Johnna, about measurement, let us know. yeah, so we have all these wonderful tools. at our disposal. what’s I was gonna say too, I know that the framework, the evaluation framework factors in the peso model, which I am a big fan of, and I do mention that I’m sure I’m, I know I talk about a MC in the book and I know I talk about peso in the book and I had Jenny on to talk about the updated, the latest and greatest peso model.[00:13:00]
I love that these things are all like coming together because these are the trusted. Tools, that you really need to do your job. And these are, free, the peso model. Anyone can go in and reference. You know that on spin sucks. And the models there, the methodologies there, the A MEC tools, they’re there, they’re free.
again, you can, of course people have their favorites and we’re not gonna get into, the paid side of things, but there are a lot of things at your disposal that are available and free.
Johna: exactly. And there, I think you and I have spoken about this, you know that there is no shortage of resources.
For people. It’s a matter of how you apply them, and I think that’s the real critical piece, is understanding what your need is so that you can align with the best [00:14:00] tool that’s available for you. A lot of AMEC members are, service and tool providers, so it is impossible to say which ones are my favorites.
They’re all my favorites. Obviously, you don’t have a favorite child. I don’t know. We won’t tell your son and your daughter if you say who yours your favorite is. But, it, it would be like that. But I think it’s really that broader depth and understanding of what people are trying to accomplish and what tool they need.
A hammer’s great unless you’re a stained glass artist and you just might not use that hammer as much as the only tool that you ever need. And so understanding the nuance in those dynamics is the critical piece that everyone needs to drill into. And I think to that end, something that is broadly used, broadly available is ai.
Everyone you know, and that’s because. [00:15:00] it’s in people’s hands now, right? So now that everybody has their hands on it, now they wanna talk about ai. AI has been around for a long time. There’s been, large language models, machine learning. AI in its backend sense has been around, but now there is generative ai.
That’s what a lot of people are talking about because they’re interacting with it. And I think that’s really important because that interaction. Makes people smarter. But it can also make the job harder if you haven’t done the research to know what you’re trying to do. if you.
Just enjoy having a conversation with a chat bot, then you know that can be a great part-time job. But if you’re trying to use this to accomplish something for your business, then you need to understand personas. You need to understand giving that structure. and the framework for the tool so that [00:16:00] you can get back information that’s going to be actionable for you.
And, those are things that can be new. They can be intimidating, but they should not be. anything that would slow someone down or prohibit someone from taking that on because it’s learning. And, if we stop learning, we start dying. And we need to be avid consumers of, all of those new elements, but know how to responsibly apply those and what some of the underpinnings of that data mean so that we don’t.
Conflate things so that we don’t insert bias into some of our insights and that, there is a consistency for organizations across what their principles and pillars are, and to understand that, AI isn’t magic. AI requires a lot of [00:17:00] energy. It takes a lot of energy to use ai. And green organizations, need to do a lot to offset that carbon footprint from what they’re doing sometimes to generate some of that ai and I think that.
it’s, one of those elements that people have to understand and, to be able to ask those questions, to drill down, to see what they’re seeing, what’s the meaning behind it, what is some of the sourcing behind it. So if they are then taking that to their management team, is it really actionable?
Do they know enough about the data to know? That it has been inclusive and encompassing of the audiences that they need to be accountable for and how they can then, take that and draw out some insights from that at the, at that next phase.
Michelle: Yeah, ai,[00:18:00]
you were saying before we started, you were talking about as the evil that you need to understand, so I that’s, I like that way of looking at it because everybody wants to use it for everything. I think understanding it and how to use it is really maybe. The focus. So yeah, it’s fun to play around with the tools maybe, but you know how you’re using it and that, it comes in, I think ethics play a role and of course, it’s ethics month, PR ethics month in September.
and it’s measurement month in November. So all of the
Johna: important things have their own months.
Michelle: And they’re tied together, as you also had mentioned to me at one point that, and, that makes sense, too, so I feel like, this is just, it just in my mind, it just all comes together and it’s really, it’s really [00:19:00] important to have these conversations so that people are thinking about these things.
’cause I think we just get head down in our work and we don’t always. Pull back and look at, where we’re at and what’s happening. And yeah, that, thank you for that bringing up ai.
Johna: Yeah. But, and it’s, the, and the attention economy does not make that any easier for anyone. Yikes.
whether you’re the one trying to go ahead down to do your work, or you’re the one trying to wave all of the red flags to get the attention of your audience, It’s a tightrope. It’s a tightrope for everything. And understanding how to navigate that is wholly different for different products, different sectors, different services.
And again, that persona and that customer profile, that stakeholder profiling is a really critical piece in order to be able to be effective. oh, everybody’s a potential customer. Okay, but who’s [00:20:00] the customer that you’re trying to affect with the message that you’re delivering at that time?
And, those are the questions that I think, depending upon your client, depending upon your organization, you can get to those whys and the hows and the who. And then that will help with credibility and respect in the comms element too, so that you can be very targeted. You can then create some testing of messages that you can start to use and leverage data back to feedback on how and why that can be important.
I.
Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. Because if we’re just taking the order and going off and, I, I don’t know that we’re gonna really be able to, answer the questions that we are gonna be asked when we come back to the table later, or, so I think it’s just really important to be asking those questions upfront instead of just running off and being like, okay, I have to do this thing.
And, putting it on your to-do list and trying to check it off and then being like asked about, what. what happened? [00:21:00] like, how did this work out? Or, what impact did it have? And we don’t know, like we, we don’t know,
Johna: And I think the real slippery slope of some AI in tech is that, for humans not to try to be robots, right?
We, have this technology, we have this ai, it’s to make what we’re doing easier, more efficient, more effective. but. We fall into this trap of then feeling like we have to keep up and oh, we have to mass produce this, and we have to do all of these other things. Then we lose the humanity that makes us special, right?
And so we lose that human connection with the audience that we might need. That can’t be done just in the layout of. 300 words or whatever that other criteria that you know, we might have in our mind’s eye. And so I think that’s the challenge for everyone, is to figure out how to use the technology to augment [00:22:00] your expertise, what makes you special, what makes you excellent, and then use that to augment that as opposed to turning that over to technology.
And then, just trying to repurpose things as much as you can. And it’s not. It’s not the easy route always, right? Because there were time constrained where all of these things, and there was this expectation, oh, you can just do that using ai. if your client said, I need a press release on a, B, C, and put that into chat, GPT chat, GPT would spit out something with, potentially bad links with anything else.
It’s not gonna spit out something good. And that’s the learning piece from it is, when you’re training those elements, it’s very similar to those similar questions that you need to know and understand to produce high quality [00:23:00] work. So the computers are learning faster. We need to be very careful not to try to compete with the, robots, but to, make sure that we have, we’re using them in appropriate ways.
Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. I don’t, I don’t disagree that, we have to learn how to work with it. ’cause it’s, it is gonna be part of our, it is part of our day to day. it’s just, it’s just hard, I think for some of us to accept because of the misuse and the, the potential for, it can cause more problems than it can.
then it, it causes more harm than good in some cases. That’s what I see with it. So that’s where I think, it’s the hesitancy comes in for some of us, but that doesn’t mean that we don’t need to understand it.
Johna: Oh yeah. No healthy skepticism is necessary and should be a part of everyone’s role.
it goes back to, I think we all need [00:24:00] to have a contrarian in our network because confirmation bias is a beautiful, wonderful place of yes. we’re all on the exact same page. Everything is amazing. That is not reality. And so if and that’s really part of this kind of. Persistent state of crisis that are, affecting so many organizations, right?
If you aren’t inclusive of the opposing opinion of these things that you’re doing, you are literally manufacturing your own crisis for, 50% of a public on any particular topic, issue, anything nowadays, You need to have those conversations in the boardroom with your clients so that when you are putting that messaging out, that all of those things are considerations that have gone into that.
and the more specific that you are. It’s, it shows some of that credibility now. [00:25:00] Some interesting studies around AI that make it, that I go back to it because it tells us so much about ourselves and the more that we can learn about ourselves, we can learn about those audiences and those behaviors.
But when, I. People are doing are, working on prompts and there are some amazing prompt engineering courses, programs, classes. I recommend everyone learn that. for anybody who didn’t learn Python and SQL and some of these other languages. You feel like this can skate you around, but you’ve gotta learn this really well because if you don’t have those prompting skills, that’s where it’s a very slippery slope of delivering really bad products and resources to your clients.
But
I’ll, use chat GPT as an example, is that it is understood that when people are talking about things of a specific, of a [00:26:00] data-centric nature that people like citations. They wanna know what’s the latest study, what’s the latest research? And if you aren’t really careful, that’s where it starts to hallucinate.
Because if research doesn’t exist around something, but you prompt, I need the latest, I need the updated research, that’s where you start to get some of that bad information. And so it’s become very good at incorporating that in some of the initial responses. And in producing a result that appears to be validated research or something, but always drill down.
nothing should be put forward without, sense checking it and also without validating the sources and the hypothesis that you originally started with and, to make sure that hasn’t been altered through some of the prompts as you’ve gone through.
Michelle: Yeah, no, I think that’s really important and hopefully people are being thoughtful.
fingers crossed that’s [00:27:00] happening. we’ll see. I, you made me think of another question, It’s fall, everybody’s back to school. are colleges, what are colleges teaching as far as, measurement in PR and comms? Do you have any sense of where that’s at these days? So
Johna: we have, academics and advisors, Group within amec. So it’s, a lot of academics and, course instructors, and it varies. It varies on the university, it varies on the courses. There is not enough that is taught, specifically around communication measurements. in my very humble opinion, I think there are, there are a lot of great resources, but I think that there’s still this, there’s still this point where people are graduating and thinking, okay, I’ve got [00:28:00] these skills, now what do I do?
And then they get into a job and it’s oh, now they’re the, chef cook and bottle washer. And they’re like, oh, what do you mean? I have to do some measurement to it? Oh, and then that’s where that reliance on. What are the outputs that they can get from something easy? As opposed to something that is bespoke.
And bespoke Doesn’t mean everything has to be customized, but it does need to be bespoke to the re the, why you are doing it, for the, how you expect to execute it and really understand that. And I think there’s a lot of room still for that to occur. In 2023, we actually opened up a scholarship program for academics.
So we can bring academics and, the commercial environment together in a more meaningful way around some of the research that they’re doing, that they’re then able to be able to operationalize and teach in their classes. this year will be the second year that we’re doing that. And, [00:29:00] it’s an important piece of.
Of those two worlds and bringing them together and, we have a great sponsor in, someone we both know Mary Beth West, consulting and bringing that forward and that along with, the students and bringing them into the community, very generously sponsored. So we had, I think over 200 students globally who joined the Amex summit virtually last year.
Michelle: Oh wow.
Johna: So they’re able to then be exposed to those real world applications of the, what they’re doing and why that measurement piece is so important as they’re preparing and, hopefully raising more of those questions to get more studies, to have more applications there in their classrooms to make them accountable for the data and the information that they’re using.
Michelle: Yeah, I feel like there’s, there’s more of a demand for that as far as people hiring, looking for PR and comms [00:30:00] pros. But I’m just, that’s why I was curious if the classroom is keeping up, because I know in other areas, it’s, it may not really be, keeping up with what the, what. People are looking to hire now, the managers that are hiring, what are they looking for?
and I know that measurement, data, analytics, all of those things are, a big part of that skillset that they’re trying to hire. So I’m just curious, like where things stand. So there’s
Johna: still a lot of
Michelle: work to do.
Johna: yeah. There’s a lot of work to do everywhere, but I think there’s definitely a lot of work to do in, that data acumen that I think comms people need to have, they don’t need to be analysts, they don’t need to, be physicists.
They do have to have an understanding of, data modeling, how that works so that they can help. The analyst on their team to be able to set up some of those [00:31:00] models to be able to garner the insights that they need of understanding what’s working, what’s not working, and to understand that early so that they can make the necessary adjustments.
Michelle: Yeah, I think sometimes, there, sometimes there’s not even a benchmark and then you get, there’s no measurement along the way, and then you get to the end and you’re like, okay, that.
Johna: There we go. That happened. It was okay. Nobody died. Check. I guess that was a success. what’s the criteria, And so it is important to have those objectives and expectations set up in, in the beginning, and that’s where the IAF, the first block is what is your objective? And you would be surprised or not that there’s still a lot of angst and inability around people to, to complete the measurable objective piece.
And so within the [00:32:00] IEF, when you look at the planning and the taxonomy pieces that are now a part of that, you’ll be able to see that there’s. Planning instructions and, aids and tools as you’re in that planning process to answer those questions so that you are, once you’re imploring, if you’re looking at your own or your earned or your shared operations, how did those factor into the equation and then being able to weight those accordingly.
So that planning piece was really critical in, in giving people a leg up on being able to. Define the why if they hadn’t already. And were just, trying be the drone of, okay, must do press release today. So understanding that and then being able to make that are really important pieces.
Michelle: Oh, and what I hear is when I bring up this, these questions like, why are you not asking more questions?
I think people are just, they don’t think they can. And so that then speaks to me, to, in my mind, that means that maybe they’re not in the right environment where, [00:33:00] their input is valued or their, the questions are valued ’cause it really should be. Something that you want from your team, from your comms and peer team is you should want them to be asking questions and you should not view that as a.
Threat or any kind of a, pushback or it’s not we didn’t say we weren’t gonna do this thing. We just wanna understand why are we doing this thing? And maybe we have suggestions once we have more information about how we can do it better or more effectively, or,
Johna: and it obviously runs the range of where everyone is in the ecosystem of their organization.
And that comes down to trust and reliability too, right? If the, comms team isn’t that trusted advisor piece, it’s gonna be a lot harder for them to think that they can affect, to change around things. And so I think as the. arbiter of reputation that makes you more reliable and more credible and more [00:34:00] critical to be at those discussions when they are talking about, Hey, here’s a potential product, to be able to offer up.
The SWOT analysis of what this might do in the market, what else is going on? How are other competitors managing something? What are those obstacles? What are the pitfalls? Being able to have some of those conversations gives added credibility. Then when you’re asking those questions to make sure that you are going after the market with the, right message at the right time, and, it helps people understand that in a much greater capacity.
It also helps them understand that. While that might be something that you want to do, are there external factors that make that ill-advised for your reputation? and that is something that I think all communicators need to be the keepers of the, of reputation management. And that really is a, critical piece and, to know where their organization is on [00:35:00] a trust index for their consumers.
Is absolutely critical. And then you can ask as many questions as you need to because if you start to see that trust slip in a road and the sales follow behind that, has everyone’s attention,
Michelle: Yes. And reputation as we know, is more important than ever because we have people saying anything, anywhere, anytime.
And then people just hear it and believe it and it’s misinformation and then it’s, it spreads And, so I think we all can agree that reputation is more important than ever. And so I feel like I just really hope that, the companies are valuing their PR and comms, teams and understanding that, there’s more to it than just, oh, go do this thing, oh, sales needs this thing, or marketing needs this thing, or we, so I feel like I hope.
I don’t know that this is true across the board, but I [00:36:00] really hope that there’s, that people are seeing, the value that, that we can bring to the table and that we really do need to be part of these discussions and part of these, plans and strategy and all of that.
Johna: and globally, I think there is a huge amount of sophistication that you see with a lot of brands and I think that, being that trusted advisor though.
Is an earned place. And I think that’s why you see a variance, from organization to organization of who’s leading those efforts, how they’ve been able to make through what their internal relationship building capabilities are. As much as their external reputational capabilities are, just as much a factor.
And I think that we have made a lot of inroads. I think, the, data shows still that there are a lot of, and I think you and I have talked about this and, cried about, and maybe that should quietly personally, but [00:37:00] the high reliance on vanity metrics still, and that’s because, There is a, confidence gap of communicators to be able to fall in love with small numbers. and I think there’s that element of, not manipulating charts and graphs and reporting of Which is the one that goes up, which shows our improvement, which shows what we’re doing. Really great.
Yeah. It’s, you’ve got to look at things holistically and understand when you have a dip, why do you have a dip? What, are those other elements of the business that might be affected by that dip? And then how you can, signal to them, okay, we’re gonna have a slower quarter. We’re starting to see, this shift under message, under pull through, under how people are talking about things. And we haven’t shifted with that. So until we do, [00:38:00] we might see a, decline or a slowing in. Our sales in retention, and that’s where you get the, that’s where you get that credibility piece. But that’s where it isn’t.
Oh, we had 18 billion impressions. for most people they’re gonna be, I. You see the heart eye emojis from a lot of people and you’re like, we’ve got a live one. You can always tell, you’re like, all right, let’s break this down. So everybody in the world saw this message. Yes.
No, they didn’t. no. And but that’s the reality. And so I think it’s, unfortunately, I think there will always be. A place for that in, in some people’s programs. But if you don’t bring in the qualitative and the narration around what, if [00:39:00] anything, those, quantitative and those vanity metrics mean.
And it, it is useless. and there are a lot of organizations who are bringing those in and they weight those things very differently and they’re looking at that in a correlation to, okay, once we get to this tipping point of. Pick up on a certain topic. Now we know that our executives are going to have an increase in interview request, right?
So they can use that as a model to help plan availability of executives that can talk about certain things. So there is a place for some of those. Quantitative and those vanity metrics, but it is understanding how and if they matter to the business of how you should prioritize those and presenting those as part of your overall portfolio of success or failure to the client and to your organization.
Michelle: I feel, like, [00:40:00] I don’t know. Again, we’ve been, we’ve been doing this a while and I just feel like I, I keep thinking, are we. Done with this yet, are we past these, looking at these vanity metrics like, and when I say that, I’m talking about things like press release pickups or how many pitches, an agency sent out, or, I just feel like those are not great ways.
Those are just a couple examples, but those are just not great. Ways to measure what you’re doing. I don’t, I just don’t understand how that, and I would feel like, if it were an agency, the client would then be asking questions about that. And if it were internal, I don’t know if they would ask questions because they, might not know what questions to ask.
They might just go along with it and be like, okay, fine. But I think. I do see more, just more talk about it within those of us in the, within the profession. I do see people will call that out a little bit or just be like, I [00:41:00] don’t think this is a good way to be, the shame effect.
Johna: The shame effect.
But I think, and I think there’s that. Yeah. Yeah. It’s, it is talked about, And I think it has to be a concerted effort though, of being able to then ask the why you’re doing what you’re doing. And unless that data is going into some other part of the equation in your data stack, you know it. It likely is, doesn’t have value.
I think there are organizations who are doing interesting things with data visualization, right? That they’re able to then take those in and tell a story. those really good stories that are nonfiction never started with. 8 billion impressions. no.
Michelle: yeah.
Johna: They just don’t.
Michelle: No, and I [00:42:00] was just, looking at the page, the Barcelona principles really quick, and I’m just gonna put up avs are not the value of communication.
and I would, and that is
Johna: the least changed of all of the Barcelona principles in the first three versions. That is the. The thing that does not change has been time tested. And I think there are a lot of discussions. There are a lot of formulas that people are using, but you really lose the crowd when you talk about the equivalency because there isn’t an equivalency.
if you’re doing anything other than advertorials that are a direct reprint of something. And that’s where I think when you were talking about some of the press releases, right? It’s oh, this. Pickup. if it’s pickup of verbatims, then it’s not on the front page of anything because it hasn’t had any qualitative element from a reporter or from any other type of journalist or intervention there.
So understanding those elements is an important. An [00:43:00] important piece to know that when it is earned and it is that interpretation of what you’re providing or the qualitative of how your customers are talking about something that is not an equivalency of something that is just propaganda, and you control that whole message.
Michelle: and what we’re doing is always a piece of what the company is doing overall. So then, if we’re not brought into the meetings or factored into the planning or the strategy, then later called upon to produce, like a report of the results. I just, again, that thinking doesn’t.
Makes sense to me. But, I think, sometimes we are our own worst enemy because we’re not speaking up and saying, talking about it like that. We’re not saying, how does this factor in, do the bigger picture and what’s the whole plan and what, I don’t know.
Johna: and that’s why the integrated, the IEF is the integrated evaluation framework.
It [00:44:00] is taking the best practice of having. All of those elements come together and working in concert as opposed to being so silo driven. but even with that, understanding your objective and knowing how your objective aligns with the organizational objective, so it isn’t, send five press releases a month.
Okay. that’s still some, so that’s not an objective that you’re going to be able to measure qualitatively. but is it, the objective of that communication campaign is to. Increase awareness with, women 18 to 24 on topic X so that they, get more education. You’re supporting those other things.
Those are elements that you can measure because now you are a pipeline. That’s why you’re using, you can use backlinks, you can use all of those elements. You can look at s at your search. You can then see how all of those [00:45:00] things are. Now coming together, and you’ll start to see a higher ranking in those elements.
And that’s why that’s important is to have a very specific objective for the organization, not just those components that the comms team will have to employ to be able to accomplish that.
Michelle: I. Then we’re looking at a bigger picture instead of just, yeah, one little blip. As part of the
Johna: me, needs to be the wee, wee
Michelle: I know. We get put on the spot and then, we’re. Just, we need to be really, we need to be our own advocate. we need to be, speaking up and, helping people understand, not only asking more questions, but just more education, I think too.
and, I sometimes people don’t know what they don’t know. So if you’re not trying to explain it, and hopefully they’re, again, they’re open. If they’re not open to questions, they’re probably not open to. Maybe a little education [00:46:00] either, so I don’t know. But maybe it’s just finding the right, companies and organizations, clients to work with.
Johna: Maybe that’s part of it. I don’t know. That’s a big part of it, but I think there’s also the curiosity effect, right? We, that’s something that we have to control within our own. And I think, encouraging book clubs of. the why and, looking at, there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of great resources and I think that, book clubs amongst our peers in the same way that we talk about, fiction and, some of these other business books, but to really look at it in a way where we’re supporting each other and that’s what the Amme community does, that’s why.
I love that, is that, we have common ground efforts of agencies that, they’re all dealing with these things to some varying degree in the same way. And it’s like, what’s, what are the, what are those challenges? How do we work on [00:47:00] those together? And it becomes a community effort. Or if there’s something like, oh, I keep having this question.
Do you have any examples of how someone has solved that? The community will likely have some answer and explanation and. That’s what makes everyone better, right? That’s that rising tide lifts all ships effect Of, of a community that is very diverse. we cover the full ecosystem of everything in comms from, the in-house comms professional to research organizations to not-for-profits.
Survey companies, software providers, software support to full suites application and services. And so everyone can come together and coalesce around some of these challenges and problems. And the Amme Global Summit was in Sophia this year, Sophia, Bulgaria, and. It is just my favorite nerd [00:48:00] fest ever because it is, there was this one moment where I’m standing in the back of the room.
One of my colleagues was there and he walks in and someone was talking about code. And he just looked at me, he goes, is he talking about code? I said, he is, and this room loves it. So it’s about knowing the audience of how they like to be challenged, of kind of understanding how to peel back that onion so that it makes them smarter and they go back to their programmers, to their developers and say, Hey.
This is the code that this guy shared about how they were able to overcome this, and everybody learns and grows from that, so it’s really fantastic.
Michelle: No, that sounds great. Where is, it coming up in November then the next one?
Johna: no. So November is measurement month. Okay. the next Amme Global Summit will be in Europe again.
Okay. and I can’t give you the exact dates because we don’t have [00:49:00] the contract signed, but I can tell you that it will be in a beautiful European city. Put it in your budgets now in June.
Michelle: okay, I’ll just put it up here. global Summit is in June. let’s talk, you mentioned we’re getting close to our hour, but I be, as we wrap up, let’s talk a little bit about, other countries and Europe.
And I feel I feel like the UK and Europe are so much more focused on some of these things than we are here. Is that, the a correct. Way to view it or what is the, how does that work?
Johna: So there are different maturities in different regions throughout the world, and just because someone is European does not mean that they are at the peak of maturity, per se.
but. It varies, right? it does vary from region to region. I think, as it relates [00:50:00] to access to data and information, especially around media relations, that does have a high effect on, PR professionals that access to that information, if you are looking at it holistically, requires copyright, requires knowing and understanding the liability that you might be posing if you are.
illegally obtaining information and then including that into your reports from foreign sources. it might be like, oh, I was just taking this link and this picture and I wanted to put it in my report. It’s oh yeah, that wasn’t free. somebody paid somebody to do that and so you are.
Creating a liability for your organization or for your client if you aren’t paying a copyright fee, an access fee to be able to use that in the US it’s definitely more of a wild west. [00:51:00] there are. Obviously there’s the current lawsuit that’s going on between the New York Times and Open AI around access to the content and how the models were trained.
that’s one of the ones in North America that will, I think, be a game changer for how it’s done in the US As far as the eu, they have several different policies where there is remuneration. Around that content. And depending upon the country, if you’ve copied a link or something, there is a much steeper penalty that you can be subjecting your organization to.
And so it does require using accredited partners who are scraping and aggregating and they are paying those licenses and royalties to those outlets in order to be able to let you use that to report on that, to even be able to share that within your organization. [00:52:00] I’ve talked about copyright for decades, literally decades, and you get, that’s a, that’s another real kind of blank stare conversation where people are like, yeah, but I can see it, so I can just use it.
It’s No, just because you know your car is in your driveway and you’re not using it at that moment, doesn’t mean anybody can come and take it for a joy ride until you’re ready to use it, right? Like you pay a lease for that. You pay the gas for that. And so understanding nothing is free. And if you are using it to either report or to designate some.
It, you are taking someone else’s work, and to what degree do you need to license that to take that? and so it, it is an element of liability that, that I think comms pros need to be very dialed into within the regions that they are operating and making [00:53:00] sure that they don’t assume or presume anything on a global data aggregation scale and that they are working with.
responsible partners within each of those countries to avoid unnecessary liabilities. Like I say, I think so much good work is done from comms, but so much is, ah, we’re just gonna do this really quick. And, that’s what can create crisis and liability from a comm standpoint that isn’t factored into some of the other responsible data acquisition and use cases.
Understanding who your partners are is what’s gonna give you protection. But I would say, access to, to content, to be able to do some of that is one of the biggest factors. And in the UK they have the NLA, and that is, There are a lot of opinions about copyright and the NLA, it does give some assurance and some [00:54:00] confidence for comms pros that they have this relationship with the NLA, so the data that they are using is ethically sourced and acquired and they can use and report that.
And so I think, It does vary, but I think that is something that I would like to see a lot more of in the us especially as we talk about the fourth estate and the importance of the fourth estate. yet we don’t prop that up. And so that makes us, consumers of something that we aren’t really supporting if we aren’t assuring that there is remuneration to the reporters who are doing the work that we value and we believe is so important.
Michelle: Yeah, there’s just so many, things that you said there that, it’s just, it’s all about really thinking it through and just being you I just feel like there is such a rush to do everything without putting any thought. [00:55:00] behind it, and I feel like that’s where we need to, again, take a deep breath, slow down, take a step back, however you want to say it, and just really be just more thoughtful about our work and, we can get ourselves in trouble.
So someday I’m gonna have someone on to talk about legal, the legalities, of all these things in PR and Cobb. So stay tuned for that because that’ll be
Johna: Davis and, I think they have some great. Speakers speaker that can help you to, work through that. So they work a lot of peer agencies
Michelle: Yeah.
On that, because I think that’s a really important topic and it’s just, again, there’s so many things happening. it’s a crazy time, but interesting, exciting time and I feel you and I are gonna be staying in touch and we’re gonna have a lot to talk about, so
Johna: Love it.
Love it.
Michelle: But yeah. Is there anything [00:56:00] else as we wrap up that you’d like to share?
Johna: No, I think just, measurement month is coming up, so we’ll have a full calendar of, different webinars. There are some other partner groups that we have that will, do some paid events, but we try to make sure that there’s at least several webinars throughout the month that will be free.
And, I will be at PRSA. Anaheim and, Richard Bagnall and I’ll be doing a measurement session there. It’s a do not miss. They have us in the real sweetheart spot and I think like 5:30 PM on.
what better way to go into your first big networking though, than to have a new head full of interesting measurement things to use as icebreakers with new friends that you’re making? So I, hope to see a lot of people there and. [00:57:00] ask questions, be a part of, networks, whether it’s amac, whether it’s PRSA, whether it’s the C-I-P-R-P-R-C-A, whether it’s eco, have a good network and, to be able to do some of that broad learning and some of that sense checking.
And don’t be afraid to be the contrarian if it’s going to mean saving your organization from unnecessary liabilities in the, as a blockade of expediency, It’s a necessary evil and to be able to talk through those things, but to also be challenged, continue to read a lot. I know that our time is, so tricky and that’s why there’s Audible and there’s, systems that can read to you.
There’s some great podcasts. there’s. Always ways to keep learning so that you can keep challenging your own norms and your own prejudice so that you don’t fall into that confirmation bias trap that can [00:58:00] also leave your organization exposed to liability and to, a self manufactured crisis. There’s a lot of great people, there’s a lot of great resources, like Michelle, who are trying to work and to help bring everyone together around some of these topics. And, AMEC is very, is a niche and very focused on measurement and evaluation and, that’s what makes us just very pleased to be able to be part of so many communities as a result.
So thank you for having me.
Michelle: I’m just delighted that you were here today, and I know that you’ve just got a really busy fall coming up, and so I’m glad that we were able to do this today, and I love your advice to keep learning and reading and growing, and just because you think you know something today, it’s, you’re probably not gonna, it’s gonna be maybe different tomorrow.
So we never should stop asking questions and learning and, understanding. Best we can, the landscape that we are working in. [00:59:00] So thank you so much, Jonna, for being here. Thanks Michelle. Thanks everyone for joining. It was a pleasure. Thank you. See you again soon. Bye.
